Three Calls With A Killer

Recordings in which Jared Lorenzo rambles for an hour and a half with increasingly alarming paranoia and obsession, three years before Ellie's murder.

I wish there had only been three calls, but Jared never allowed social decorum to prevent him from talking your ear off. I was used to spending long blocks of time talking to him on the phone, but it was always mostly listening. Even if you said you had to go, there would always be “one more thing” that could add on at least another hour.

The phone calls I started receiving after Jared and Chrystal moved to NorCal were very different. He was making bizarre allegations that I may have believed, had I not already walked alongside her though the precautions to avoid his abuse. In my interactions with her, she was genuinely scared. In my interactions with him, I honestly don’t even know how to describe his affect or understand why he displayed no emotions at all. I tried my best to capture it here, in my letter to the court.

In July 2019, serial killer Lori Vallow arranged for her husband Charles Vallow to be killed after he repeatedly sought protection for himself and their children. When she spoke to him, she was open about her beliefs that he and their children had been replaced by demonic entitites. When he arranged for emergency psychiatric evaluation, she acted like he was making it all up and was able to talk her way out of the facility.

That same year, Lori and her cult leader husband, Chad Daybell, would go on to murder both of children and Chad’s wife. I had followed this case closely and been so angry at the multiple bodycam videos of Charles asking for Lori to receive help. He knew what Lori was capable of and nobody believed him. Her family didn’t listen to him. Would it have helped if he had recorded the things Lori was saying at home? Maybe, maybe not. But it made me want to get evidence of how crazy Jared was talking. That’s where the following phone call recordings come in, of which I have three.

Nobody asked me to make these recordings. I didn’t do so at Chrystal’s request or at the request of anyone else. I wasn’t playing them back for people either. I just felt like they were needed, just in case. Still, I felt like a bad person for betraying my uncle’s trust. He would ask me repeatedly to keep everything he said private and even if I wasn’t publicizing the recordings, making them in the first place meant I was lying when I agreed. I feel tinged with all kinds of guilt listening back, even though I have no love for the man at all anymore.

I was even more nervous to admit I even had the recordings as I didn’t want to get into legal trouble. Still, I offered them to the court’s custody evaluators to provide insight on his state of mind from his own words. They didn’t choose to listen or admit them, so they stayed on my computer until now.

There were so many blatant lies during these calls that I didn’t know how to respond. For a mild example, there’s a moment where Jared talks about how having untreated ADHD has impacted my studies. This same man updated me each and every step of the way on his ADHD treatment journey from diagnosis to trying different medications, the Pomodoro method, and receiving specialized coaching. He lied with ease as if we hadn’t had numerous conversations about this topic and the treatment he was receiving for it over the past 2-3 years.

I chose not to refute any of Jared’s claims. I just listened to what he had to say. This does not mean that any of the serious allegations he makes about his wife or his family have any merit. I now believe that his incredibly detailed rants were based on his own inner thoughts and workings. These recordings, and the things he claims Chrystal thinks or does, may be the closest we ever get to knowing exactly what was in his own mind when he did what he did. A lot of it would make sense that way.

On October 12, he’s so blasé about his longest list of allegations while also writing a letter to his teachers asking for an extension because he is a “victim of domestic abuse.” At a certain point, Chrystal had to let her job know what was happening because she moved out of the house during the workday so Jared wouldn’t find her. Her anxiety over doing so was in great contrast to Jared casually publicizing his accusations. He was devoid of the shame that an actual victim of abuse is fighting though. He was devoid of any emotion at all.

Something important to note is that when Chrystal did move out in early October, she did not break the lease and only took her own and the baby’s personal belongings. She left the furniture and she left all of Jared’s stuff. He had a place to live, though by that point it wasn’t a place he was used to coming home to. He was usually out for days at a time doing God know’s what. Anyway, he was not homeless. When he talks about being homeless in the phone calls, he’s lying because he doesn’t know I know the truth. He might have actually been sleeping in his car like he claimed, I don’t know. But if so, it was like the choice he had made to do so ten years ago while amassing internet fame for being a down-on-his-luck homeless man that secretly had plenty of free places to live at his disposal.

Additionally, I’d like to point out that by October, the relationship is beyond salvaging. However, these phone calls began before Chrystal had any inclinations to leave him whatsoever. Jared was not making weird phone calls because he was stressed with the divorce, as some people wrote them off as. There wasn’t one on the horizon whatsoever when he began.

A court ordered psychologist would later go on to diagnose Jared with a mixed Personality Disorder with Narcissistic and Obsessive traits, basically saying that he didn’t fit neatly in a specific box. On the October 12th call, Jared speaks so in depth about Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Knowing that he had been in therapy for years in college, it makes me wonder if this is information that he’s instead been able to parse about his own self and is projecting outward. The level of detail is just so specific. It may be that he has a strong understanding of himself and was able to make himself seem less unhinged in the meeting with the court psychologist, preventing an accurate diagnosis. Regardless, just because someone has narcissistic or obsessive compulsive tendencies doesn’t mean they’re capable of killing their own daughter.

I’ve written these transcripts myself and done my best to do so. I’m just not a professional transcriptionist so it took me many hours and there may be some small errors or parts I was unable to hear clearly.

I don’t expect you to read every word or listen to every minute. As I write this intro, I’m still working on transcribing and one of the calls is up to 19 single spaced pages. That’s a lot. But I feel compelled to share everything I have, even if it’s eventually turned into smaller pieces.

So here we are. Three phone calls across five days. For a summary of each call, read my letter to the judge:

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Call #1: October 7, 2024

Note: The very beginning of this phone call was not captured.

Jared: It’s like if I spent all day going to museums, tourist sites, whatever. You know, if I lose something. If I ask myself, look, how many times in this entire day did I sort of just stop— even just stop for a second, so like, I use that to find a skateboard I lost at the ticket desk at the very base, a thousand people in line. I left a skateboard there at the Eiffel Tower and I came back like literally, the whole day I went traveling, whatever. And I’m like there’s no way (unintelligible) hours later, that was the best find. I don’t think I’ll ever top that.

And for me, obviously I was a kid and the skateboard meant so much to me. So for me, that was the most glorious, now I’ve lost like a thousand other things and I never found them. LIke that never really (laughs) now that’s funny. I think some people never really, might be more prone to lose stuff in certain places. Is there a science behind that? I have no idea.

Me: Right. But sorry, I interrupted you. You were saying something, sorry.

Jared: No, I mean its nothing. Look. In the midst of my cryptic calls and texts to you, I was trying to like, not say too much or whatever. One thing— I do remember at least on some level was like, “Hey. There’s gonna be some— I have reason to believe there’s gonna be like some weird accusations about me. And it’s going to be filtered though like maybe friends or family or whatever. I mean specifically from my wife. I’m being honest. So it was like hey, my wife, I know, is already starting to whisper here and there. And knowing her, if she does something once, she’ll do it a hundred times.

So I’m like, this must be meaning that she’s going to start amplifying this sort of thing, right? Saying I was somewhere I wasn’t. Saying this. Saying all this. Once someone’s saying something like ‘Hey Zinnia,’ like if I start telling people, “Zinnia is in Michigan right now. She ran off with this boyfriend she met on, in Hollywood. She’s been in Michigan.” And I kinda started telling a whole story for an hour to people and I started calling them, am I if I told it convincingly enough and it was something— I was sticking to it, you may get to a point where you think there’s something weird about this Jared guy. Why would he— I could prove I wasn’t in that state. That’s different than maybe he misunderstood.

This feels like it might be malicious. Let me, you know, I should probably keep a heads up. So anyway, she starts this smear campaign. I don’t need to share what she’s saying. I think it will be variations of I’m a bad, absentee husband or—

Me: That you ran off with someone from Tinder? Or that’s just a random example?

Jared: Yeah, definitely a random example. That’s like the good thing about me. That’s also the bad thing. Everyone always thinks my examples is like what— I’m like no, in my head I see ten different examples. So I wanna give you one of the random ones. So you can like see what I mean. And then people are like, “Wait, the example you gave is actually what happened though, right?”

Oh no no no, I never— uh, no no no. It’s more like uhhh, that I’m like physically abusive to my wife.

Me: Oh, wow.

Jared: She likes to leave it ambivalent— ambiguous. So she may say, “Jared was kind of like aggressive.” So she makes it— and the sad thing is that it depends who you’re talking to, right? So like, if you’re my direct family member, it’s not that you would or wouldn’t believe. But she actually would probe to see what you will or won’t believe. So she might say to you, or to somebody, see, the thing is that she doesn’t talk to you consistently anyways.

Me: Right, I don’t—

Jared: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. Whatever, I’m just saying. You might believe it. But obviously in general, people are not going to be as bold when they’re talking to someone who has known the person for 25 years. Cuz it’s just— they’re not as sure about if it would work or not. You know what I mean? So it’s— so she may say I was aggressive. I was aggressive. You know how men are. And then if you say, “Oh I know how men are, men can be this that and the other,” she’ll typically just say “Yes, Jared too.” So any bad experience you have ever had with any man, boyfriend, whatever, so that’s kind of how it typically works.

So if it’s someone who doesn’t really know me, isn’t related to me, is totally a friend of hers kind of thing, then she’ll tell the version where you know, maybe I chased her around the apartment and there’s a side of me they don’t realize. And then in the end of it, she has a victim narrative and it’s all about how it’s all my fault. Cause like for me, I don’t mind if people say, “I don’t want to be with you.” That’s fine. But when there’s more of a maliciousess behind it in the sense of, let’s see if I can try and get this person fired, that’s when you know— I’m going to try and get this person kicked out of school. I’m going to say things that are like totally fabricated to try and drive a wedge between this person and their family as best as I can just to cause chaos in their whole life, because I enjoy their suffering… That’s beyond the— that’s more than the typical like ‘Hey, I hate your guts, I’m breaking your heart, I’m leaving you.’ That’s more about like you really want to do damage and you kind of want to see that person hurting.

But the good news is that, I won’t say it’s good news, but the good news is that I— Because I think there might be more coming, but the good news is that like a few of her friends even called me. Like, ‘Hey, I don’t know what’s going on but like Chrystal kind of gave me this funny phone call. And—”

Me: Her friends??

Note: Jared now realizes he’s reached the limit of my apparent acceptance of this train of thought so he changes the subject.

Jared: Well, that’s the thing. Like no one’s perfect at this lying game. Even the master manipulators— like I’m no good at lying at all. My emotions, I wear them on my sleeve. Everybody is— I’m trying to think. I’m like honest to a fault. Right? I overly share. And that’s actually because— we can talk about that a different day, actually. I don’t want to get into some like why I’m like… you know.

But anyway, the good news is that uh, nature is taking its course to so speak. And, you know, some of the things I’m even telling you now, sometimes its good to just kind of be patient. Like let’s see what comes out more, you know? I think she’s pretty creative. I mean, she hacked all my phone. Hey Chrystal! She’s probably listening to this. She hacked all my like obviously all my communications, my phone, for like an extended period of time. And I’m pretty sure she’s hearing this right now. But, uh, that’s okay. At least there’s an awareness, and that’s fine. Like, life goes on.

Oh, oh, the good news.

Me: What?

Jared: The good news, Ellie— I know right? You really thought I was going to get into some dramatic stuff?

Me: Well, you started by saying there was some good news. And then it was like, nothing you’ve said so far sounds like it’s good, honestly.

Jared: No no no, the good news is because I talked to you already a month ago and I was like, “I don’t know how to phrase this.’ I don’t now feel compelled to make a big deal of what this thing that actually is transpiring. Because I already felt weird telling you about it three weeks ago. You think I was comfortable saying ‘Hey, you’re my niece. Just a heads up. I noticed my wife is making like, making these weird comments in the other room. Like making these stories up that really disturb me.’ I’m pretty sure if she’s doing that, it’s more of like, to filter it through. If someone’s going to do that, it wouldn’t be just one person. It’d be more like ok, let’s do the family now. Let’s do this. So just give it time.

Me: She’s telling people in our family that?

Note: Jared now realizes he’s reached the limit of my apparent acceptance of this train of thought so he changes the subject again.

Jared: Well, it doesn’t matter. Right. The thing about, the thing about lies sometimes, it’s better to just be patient. Cause like even talking about it gives it more power. So if I talk about all the different versions of the story, or if you and I start calling people in our family and alerting all of them, what it is is actually creating a confusion. “I heard there was this thing that I haven’t heard yet.” I heard the lie, the lie, the lie, the lie, it almost gives it like a, “Well maybe it is true.”

If I start calling everybody— like I might call you, cause you’re like, out of my entire family you’re probably one of the only people who I can say, I’m pretty sure that if I was like sick or something, you wouldn’t get any sort of satisfaction out of that. You’d probably be like, ‘That actually is kinda sad. I don’t want to see him sick.’

And I know that’s a small thing, but it’s actually kind of hard to find sometimes nowadays. I mean, there’s not that many people sometimes who actually feel kinda actually, like “I feel bad or I actually want this person to get well.”

Anyway, the good news. Ellie tried to crawl today. She did. She didn’t get the arms and the elbows and the knees right—

Me: Wait, how old is she?

Jared: Only 4 1/2 months! Oh my God! You have to come see this baby. I know you’re busy with work and stuff. But almost kinda like, if you’re ever interested— I told you months ago. If you’re ever interested in coming to check it out and visit, this chunky butt little baby, she’s like. God. She’s like literally— okay so like a week ago, she kinda started doing that thing where she like flipped herself over. I got that on tape. I thought I sent you a video of that.

See, this is— see like, I’m not saying I’m some perfect guy. I’m not saying I’m like some saint or something. I’m definitely not. Like I think I am a— I think I am a little— Now that I am realizing that I basically have been in an abusive relationship, and like been abused by my siblings for my whole life even recently, I’m starting to understand like— This narrative that I tell myself that I’m such an annoying person who talks so much and is so stressed out, part of that is because I’m being triggered by people who think it’s funny to see me getting stressed out. So we can talk about that later because I’m not as— so anyways, I’m not some saint either. I’m not just whatever whatever.

I really do love talking about Ellie’s stuff because Ellie’s awesome and she’s unique. And she’s like— so she flipped over today. I’m like— and the breastmilk. She’s getting chunky butt. And like she, she rolled over. I was, she rolled over kinda like fast. She rolled over, I saw it the first time it maybe a couple weeks ago, then she rolls over. She kinda stays. She just sits there. She can’t like crawl, she’s not really like upright upright. But you know, she’s kinda like, like you’re almost like “Oh my God! Is your face in the blanket? Like can she breathe?”

She’s not like lifting herself up like from the ground really. But she’s kinda like, she rolls over and her face is in the blanket. You’re kinda like oh my God, like what if she suffocates.

Note: After this call I asked, and Chrystal said that Ellie was not even close to rolling over at all.

She’s such a sweet kid. Oh my God. I love this baby so much. Yeah, I mean, I’m sorry if I act really weird on the phone. But you have to understand, it’s like, you know, if like somebody told me I’d never see Zinnia again, just, I’m not like— you’re an adult. You’re a grown woman. You could move away, like go and be happy. I would never want you to be around or in my state, country or something, if it was like any sort of umm— yeah, if it wasn’t something that was kind of healthy or positive for you. Like maybe you got an opportunity to go live in Japan. For two or five years. Maybe ten years. You know what I mean?

But if somebody told me, like, you’re never going to see Zinnia ever again, even though you’re like an adult, I would be really sad about that. For any reason. Even if it was like “Hey I’m moving, I’m never coming back,” and I knew for sure, you won’t see Zinnia for 30 years, I— again, you’re an adult. I’ve already had a chance to like get to know you, on some level.

Me: Wait. Can I ask for one clarification? Because I know you’ve just said how you give examples and people think they’re literal. I don’t want to do that on accident.

Jared: Oh

Me: So are you being told that you’ll never see Ellie again? I mean obviously that’s where my brain goes when I hear this hypothetical.

Jared: Let me say something. When I’m calling you being cryptic, that’s me as a father calling you. And I don’t feel comfortable. See, that’s what’s different about me as a father versus me as a guy that didn’t have any kids. If I’m a father, I’m still a guy who tends to overshare. I’m still the guy whose a little bit sensitive. But the difference is, uh, now that I have a child, I am having to learn how to say, “I can’t share that.” If I share that information, that’s like sensitive information about the health or the safety or the status of my child. And even if— it’s like, so it’s like— if you’re dealing with your own kids, and they’re the ones involved in any sort of situation, you feel like obligated to like only share what you have to or share what is relevant to something that needs to get done.

Like “Hey, Zinnia. Ellie’s in trouble. I need you to do xyz.” And it would be like kinda if I knew that you would do it. But I wouldn’t necessarily like share like throw stuff out there. “Hey, Ellie is sick, blah blah blah.” Like I wouldn’t— but if it’s me. “Hey Zinnia, I’m sick, can you help me get this medicine?”

You might say, “Well, no. I can’t. I’m sorry.” And I’d be like oh, okay. No big deal. And if people find out I’m sick, it’s whatever. It’s embarrassing but it’s not a huge deal. Versus some legal situation with like an infant or something.

Me: Right. I just want to say though— because like I know I’m not going anywhere. So in my head it’s like, well why is he saying this hypothetical? And then—

Jared: Well obviously. When I have a daughter. That’s exactly why I’d say something like that. For me, I’m trying to be like— I think that’s kind of a pretty clear analogy. I’m a new dad. I love my daughter. We’re talking about her. But yeah. I think she’s a funny baby. I will do think this though, she smiles a lot. I read her— I read her books like all the time.

What’s funny is I’m like… are all babies funny babies? I don’t remember. I have no idea. But I’m like, I think she’s kinda, I don’t know. I get the sense that she may have a good sense of humor. Cause she’s kinda like, she likes, I don’t know. She’s kinda like, I don’t know. I’m so biased, right? But she’s like, she’s smiley. She’s like very… you’ll see her when, or uhh, are all babies the same personality?

Me: No

Jared: How different are their personalities?

Me: Well, I don’t really know how different their personalities are but I know that they’re different.

Jared: Sure.

Me: Some, like… you’ll hear parents talk about how this kid was laughing and energetic but this other kid was so quiet and never cried. There are different things. So I guess we’ll see.

Jared: Right.

Me: Oh, I’m curious. Since she’s doing the crawling, soon hopefully she’ll be mobile, but um, is she like still doing the younger baby thing of “Oh my God, I’m not getting any sleep?” Or is she starting to sleep through the night? How has that been?

Note: By this point I was so annoyed that he kept trying to manipulate me, I was just curious how he would answer a question I already knew he had no idea what the answer was. The man wasn’t home during the nights. He wasn’t helping with the baby. And no, the divorce wasn’t filed yet either.

Jared: It depends who you ask. I mean, I’m there every day. Umm. So she’s definitely much more consistent with her sleeping. If you ask Chrystal, she’ll tell you, “This baby keeps me up every single night.” The narrative is kinda more centered— Chrystal is the center of it every single time, no matter— like even if we have a live in nanny around the clock. Or TWO live in nannies—

Me: You have two?

Jared: No. Well, now there’s the mother-in-law. And the there’s the nanny full times. Even if there’s two people full time, two people doing nothing but taking care of Ellie, somehow Chrystal’s narrative has to still have her at the center of it. Where it’s like, ‘It’s just so crazy having a daughter.’ And then that’s kind of a common theme. So any topic about “How’s your marriage Chrystal? How’s our life?” Everything involves her being in this kind of victim narrative. And that’s a conversation for a different day.

But yeah, from my perspective, babies wake up. And definitely breastfeeding our kid’s really hard. So I think Ellie wakes up once or twice. Uh, but it’s not like before where it’s just erratic. I mean, she will sleep five hours a night. I know that because, like there’s like six nights in a row where like, okay, she’s asleep at midnight. Okay? But she may wake up at 2. She wants a little bit of milk, she goes back to sleep. So it’s yeah, it’s not like she’s up. Before she was up, from like 11pm to 5am every night for the first two months. I know, because that was my shift. It was one of my shifts, right? Like I, I’m kind of a night owl. I didn’t mind it, it was nice getting that time with her, honestly.

But yeah. She’s doing really really good. But yeah, I don’t really have that much more to share. I just wanted to call you. I don’t want to always call you on some kind of like weirdo stuff, over some like “Oh my God,” like— that’s, like I’m not saying that’s not my reality at times. But it’s not my identity. I don’t relate to that. I don’t have a desire. But uh, yeah. I’ll try to send you some uh, photos of Ellie.

Oh, wait a minute! Is it dumb if, when Ellie’s with— when I’m with her, she smiles. Unlike when she’s with some people who smile at her, she doesn’t smile as much I’ve noticed. Which is kind of really, which really troubles me a little bit. But I didn’t want to overthink that. That’s a different, again that’s a different conversation. But, um, I don’t know. The book I read was saying that you should smile at the baby. Because then it helps them learn how to use their facial features, and their sense of self.

Me: Yes. That is true.

Jared: And I have somebody that looks at the baby for like three hours and never smiles at the baby once. To me, I’m saying that this goes against what the book is saying. They have to see your smile and then they can mirror back your emotions. Versus being like, you’re staring at them. That’s creepy to me. So that’s kind of like a source of conflict in my life. It doesn’t matter. And no one’s going to believe me anyways if I say that. And they’re going to say it’s because of some other reason, they’re not going to say no, it’s some other thing.

But look, uh, if a baby smiles, like consistently? Is it almost kind of naive to be like, oh, this is a happy baby? Or this baby is like more funny or smiley? Because I almost am like— I think some babies might be more chill and not smile as much. And I think they might be more curious or explore or whatever. And I do feel like maybe some babies are just smiling a lot because they like to smile back. Or in other words, I don’t know if I should take that to mean like, oh Ellie’s really happy today because every time I smile, she smiles back, she’s happy all day! Versus me being like, you know, let me look at— because normally, she takes naps at noon for example. Maybe it’s better not to think like that. Maybe she smiles because she doesn’t even know what she’s doing and it’s better to look at how much sleep she got and maybe keep an eye on that. Or her feeding. But more looking at little changes in her routine.

That’s another way to look at a kid in terms of ok, that’s how much weight they have put on. Yeah, Is there— are they seeming irritated? There’s little apps and stuff and you can focus on that. Or she’s smiling a lot today! I’m a great dad!

Me: Ok, I’m not trying to burst your bubble but I think sometimes younger babies smile when they’re a little gassy.

Jared: Exactly. That’s what I’m saying.

Me: I think around like 6 months is when they start moreso smiling or laughing because they’re happy or because especially that they find something funny. But I think that before that, i’m not too sure. Something that I found out that’s interesting is that babies don’t have perfect eyesight. Their eyesight is still developing after they’ve been bored, so that’s something interesting too. I don’t know how that factors in. But hey, I gotta get going I have to get back to work.

Jared: Love you, bye! (click)

Me: okay, bye. bye.

Call #2: October 8, 2021

Jared: “I can’t really say everything I could. But uh, she’s doing this big smear campaign. And she like calls— she thinks its funny actually. It’s really kind of a sick and twisted kind of thing. She’ll be in the other room calling these people. Like purposefully— like hey. Just showing you that this is what I do when you’re not around. It’s not like ‘he’s an asshole.’ It’s trying to get other people to look at me differently […] Sometimes to talk to you for just five minutes is good. Because I did talk to you like a month ago and say hey, my wife’s gonna be making calls. Cuz I kind of have seen her do it. I have to think pretty hard but I’ve seen her doing that a few times here or there. And I got this intuition like it seems like they’re practicing, this person is practicing for a future time when they’re going to call 30, 40, 50, 60 people and do this.

She’s saying stories in front of me that are factually not even— a place we didn’t go. Or things that never happened. Or actually you know what it was? I think it was in the marriage therapy, it was so creepy and scary. We’re in the therapy and she starts telling these stories about you know, and then Jared did this and did that. And I’m like… actually, that was you…

She really believes it though. It’s really kind of sad. But uh, anyway, yeah. Sometimes I need to check in because it’s like. That’s kind of a big like unexpected thing that’s emotionally draining so sometimes it’s good to talk to family for like five minutes. But I don’t want to feel like I’m dumping or draining– but I did like spend three, the last three, four hours with Ellie, and she’s– I think she’s sixteen and a half–

Me: Pounds? Or what?

Jared: Yeah, pounds. She seems tall but now I kinda want to double check the records because she’s been kind of fifteen sixteen pounds around for a while. Since she’s coming up on five months. So I’m sure she’s fine. I want to say maybe at four or five months they go from being more kind of like stubby chunky to being like a little bit longer and skinny. That could definitely be her. She’s– lIke her arms, so anyway.

We had a good time. I read her another book. I try to read one book a day even if its like ten minutes and uh, she’s really into peek-a-boo right now. Because like if you interact with her in certain ways, she can’t really create the interaction but you can sorta ‘Hey, peek-a-boo’ and she gets so excited. She’s laughing, she’s giggling. But if you just sorta let her sit there, she can’t– she just kinda sits there, so. It’s– and then she’ll take her nap. But she has so much energy lately. I’m like— wow. That breastmilk is really going right to her brain, it’s really cool. I feel like before, she was kinda sleeping more. I don’t know. Maybe. I hope she’s sleeping enough.

But yeah, I just wanted to call you really quick. I think for five minutes. But yeah. I’m glad I could listen to you. I’m not just here to talk about myself. I actually really prefer talking about other people or about Ellie or something to be honest but yeah. How’s everything with you? Are you doing okay?

Note: The rest of the call is pure small talk. But I’m uploading the whole thing as I had already missed recording the beginning of it. If anything, his affect and how it changes over the next four days is interesting even if the rest of the content is not.

Call #3: October 12, 2021

Me: Hey, can you hear me?

Jared: How is your day going today?

Me: Oh I’m good. Pretty good. Went to trader joe’s this morning, got some of my favorite snacks.

Jared: Funny. Yeah, I was in Trader Joe’s. I went to (??)

Me: Oh, that’s really funny. You still sound a little bit muffled. I know you said that the phone is wonky but–

Jared: Really? Interesting. Muffled. Ok, maybe now is better? I don’t– just let me know if it gets better because it’s kind of a new— now? Now is better.

Me: Yeah. You sound good now. 

Jared: Oh, ok. Cool. 

Me: So yeah, we got interrupted earlier but you were telling me that you’ve been talking to the academic advisor at Berkeley?

Jared: Yeah, I’m just checking in with you because sometimes, I don’t know about you, but dealing with really like a really stressful severe situation involving my kid… I mean,  it’s pretty intense, so. And it’s hard. Sometimes there’s not really a way to talk about it [unintelligible] but talking to someone it can help a lot and even just chit chat. Yeah, I did, I talked to them and yeah, they’re gonna— I’m downloading these letters they gave me. Huh. Weird format. Weird. Strange format. Tdf? But yeah I’m downloading these letters right now.

I have final exams tomorrow and they gave me some letters to send to my professors to ask if they had any alternate dates because my family situation was destabilized by a person with very bad mental illness.

Me: Wait, it cut out a little bit. You said my family, what?

Jared: Yeah, to you know. The school counselors gave me some letters to–

Me: To give to your teachers.

Jared: Yeah. That doesn’t mean they’ll guarantee it, I mean, this is the day before the final exams. They might not even see the email. But they gave these to me last night and they said just send them off. You never know. Two exams. One’s Thursday, one’s Friday.

And yeah. It’s really tough, you know? I almost called you last night but I was like eh, probably better not to. It’s too emotional. Because it’s like, it’s one thing if there’s something that can be done. If not, sometimes it’s better to just keep it casual because that’s more helpful for me than me being like emotional drained and pouring my heart out because I’m already like really stressed out so if the conversation is sort of gut wrenching and all this stuff, and I’m being like super open but then if at the end of it I’m feeling like so emotionally drained that I need to lay down for two hours, instead of take care of my things that are more urgent (sniffs), it’s probably not the best thing, so. Yeah, I’m trying to download these letters.  I don’t know what’s up with the weird format. They didn’t do .pdf

Me: It’s not a .pdf? What is it?

Jared: It’s like an rf? I guess I have to go to print. So if I save it, it’s not good. But if I print. Print as pdf? Yes. I think it’s ok. So yeah, I need to get these off.

Yeah, it’s really tough. It’s tough being married to someone who sort of has bad intentions and doesn’t care about their own child. It’s almost unbelievable. And no one would believe me. But yeah I mean. Am I safe to assume that when I’m sharing things with you, that it would be pretty discreet? Because all it would take would be for you to share with your mom some of the things I’m saying, and it could potentially do a lot of harm to my kid (sniffs) because yeah, my wife is preparing this legal action based upon false accusations. She’s trying to estrange me from my kid. She’s doing it because she’s just very malicious and uh, she doesn’t really care about her own kid, which is sick.

But the more information— like if you share with your mom, because this already happened two or three different times where I’ve shared. And you’re basically one of the only people I talk to in this moment because when I share something like ‘Hey, my wife is telling me she’s going to put these false charges on me, she’s multiple times telling me she’s going to call the cops screaming out the window and she’s going to kind of call the cops and lie and try to get me in jail.’

And if I’m sharing that with family members, they think it’s funny actually. I’m realizing that in our family we have a lot of sadistic people who are pretending be very caring. And one of the tell tale signs of these people I’m realizing finally is whenever you share something with these people that’s a little more personal or sensitive or vulnerable, that could kind of compromise you, they always insist you share more details every time and they say they need more details because it will help them, give them the chance to help you more. But the reality is that they enjoy your suffering (sniffs). I didn’t know that your mom was like that, [redacted], or a lot of other people. But it’s ok. I’m not judging them. Sometimes people have dealt with abuse and that's how the cycle is perpetuated is that they take on traits of the abuser where they themselves pretend to have a narrative where they’re the victim. But the reality is actually they ended up taking on more traits of all sorts of the abuser mentality actually, which is kind of sad.

But anyway, yeah. I’m assuming that when I share something with you, your mom doesn’t get the message. Because two or three times already, different siblings of mine have shared little details like oh, I’m going to talk to a lawyer. They immediately shared it with my wife and compromised my ability to defend my freedom in court because they thought it was funny. They immediately called her, texted her saying, Oh Jared says he is going to talk to a lawyer too. Jared is saying that he knows that you’re violent or whatever. And every single time, it’s hurt my ability to defend myself. 

Does what I’m saying make some logical sense to you? Like if you told me someone did something to you, and I called that person, and shared what you told me, You may feel like wow. That’s really hurtful. Because maybe you were trying to take it to court. Maybe you had a lawyer ready. Maybe you were trying to defend yourself from an abusive workplace or school or whatever environment (sniffs), and now you’re sort of giving the person abusing you this information that they can now use to get their case ready or do whatever they’re going to do next to you. Does that make any kind of sense what I’m saying? Or not really?

Me: I could definitely see how that’s hurtful, especially if you believe that you can confide in somebody. I think that hearing that different people in our family would be laughing, that’s something kind of difficult to hear I guess because it contradicts my personal experience but I’m not saying it didn’t happen to you. Does that make sense?

Him: Yeah. That’s what’s different  with me now is that I have a kid too. So before, I didn’t mind if everyone has this narrative of hold on, what you’re saying isn’t a big deal. It didn’t matter as much. But if I’m sharing something that’s very sensitive and has to do with my child’s safety, as a parent I not have a different expectation. So when your mom tells me and I say “Hey, there’s this thing about Ellie. Please be discreet about it. I’m just calling because I’m in a city I’m not familiar with, and I need some support of some kind. Not emotional support. Maybe I need help. Can someone google something for me? I need you to be really discreet. I don’t have access to a computer. I’m some miles from my home and I don’t know this area. I’m trying to do it on my cell phone but I need you to search something for me, that kind of thing.” Basic stuff. And then um that person is saying yeah, can you keep that discreet? “For sure, yeah, no worries.”And they’re sharing it with my wife or with other people.

As a parent, see before it wouldn't matter as much, but as a parent it’s like I have to look out for my kid’s best interest. And that’s when everything transformed for me. When I became a parent was like hey, [Redacted] I can’t sort of talk about you and how hard your life is, because I usually do that, and every single time I talk to you, I’m supportive. And every time I talk to her (sniffs) you know, I just have the same little script. “You’re like a supermom. Being a mom is the hardest.” 

Even if I say something about me being in business school, the next word out of my mouth is “Yeah, but just so we’re clear, being a mom is the hardest job on the planet.” You know, I’m always saying this stuff to her every single time., a thousand times in a row that I talk to her. And we never have any disagreement, haven’t in years, because every time I’m in sort of this younger brother adulating and praising his sister who can do no wrong sort of thing (sniffs). Which I don’t mind doing. I mean, but then she says, “Oh it’s so hard having kids. I’m so stressed out, but you know me, I’m fighting through it.” This story narrative where she’s at the center of everything (sniffs). 

And I told her hey, you know, I’ve called and asked you how your kids are doing a hundred times, you know, a thousand times over the last fifteen years. I’m a parent too finally and I’m dealing with some things with my kid, I’ve got a question to ask, there’s this thing about Ellie, and her immediate response is “Hold on, I still want to talk about me.” 

“No no no, this is really urgent. I need to help Ellie. There’s some stuff going on. After all these years, this is just the one time where I need to be able to talk for five minutes about my own child. Just to have the same conversation I’ve had with you a thousand times, I want to have that.”

Cuz it’s like as a parent, you have limited time. You have to pick this up, email, do this. Hey, my kid’s sick. My kid’s in danger. My kid’s this. You don’t have an hour to feed the other person’s ego or listen to them go, ‘Oh, hold on. I don’t really want to hear about Ellie. I kind of still want to talk about me.’ Yeah, it goes a lot deeper and we don’t have to get into that. 

Okay, let’s see. I have one letter… Two letters. So yeah. I have to email the school (sniffs). The reason I’m calling is– so yeah. Don’t tell your her anything, [Redacted], or [Redacted] if you can believe it. I have a lot more examples but I’d have to sit for hours to explain. 

Me: [Redacted]? I always found [Redacted] to be a very caring person.

Jared: As a general– well, yeah. Everybody can be bribed. My wife loves giving expensive gifts. 

Me: Oh wow.

Jared: She’ll give someone $3000 cash just to have that person sort of maybe share information with her. Like if you knew certain things about me, she happily, Chrystal happily would send you 15, 2500 car repair. ‘Girl, I got the engine for you.’ You’ll never feel so– She’ll make you feel so special, like you never have felt so special and then next thing you know she’ll say bad stuff about me. And you’ll feel conflicted. This person is so nice to me. And that’s more important than my friendship with them, my uncle’s ability to see his kid. Even if you knew she was saying lies about me. Even if you knew she was breaking apart my family, you still would– most people would still be conflicted.

Like oh my God, this person, she’s promising me, like if she promised you… Like for you, let’s say you’re at some job where you really wish you had $3,000 to invest in some new start up. Or maybe you need $5,000 to you know, if you had that money you could go to New York for some big interview at some organization and you always dreamed of working there, you know what I mean? She’ll find out very quickly what your desire and  your wish is. And some of it will come true. She’ll help you in the short term, but then in a year or two, once she’s done using you for whatever reason, information, or she may use people just to hurt me. Sadly, she does that kind of thing a lot too. She thinks that kind of thing is funny. Like, watch. I’m gonna have your family members spend more time with your own kid than you are. She thinks that’s— that’s sadism. It’ a different kind of thing. And then when she’s done though, you won’t hear from her for five years. You’re like wait what happened, I thought you were going to… That’s the difference between someone who really cares for somebody and somebody who has this uh…

But anyway, so look, I’m downloading these three letters. I’m gonna send them out. I’m gonna send them out and I’m gonna request (sniffs)… I’m gonna let the professors know I have some things going on. I have a letter from the school’s therapist. I’m going to let them know, I’m going to ask them, say hey, I’m reaching out… Ehmmm…

[Typing an email draft]: Good afternoon. Um. Is there an alternate test date which I could take the final exam?

Yeah. She’s nothing like you know. The person you think you met? Totally different in private. 100,000%. I don’t even care about it for my sake. The problem is the way she treats my kid (sniffs). And uh, if I share with you, you won’t believe it. I wouldn’t believe it either. It took me three years to see the other side of this person. But yeah. She doesn’t feel. She’s uhh— I have to be really careful what I share with people, what I do because the problem is that I didn’t mind if she treated me some kind of way. She has this narrative that she wants to put out there how it’s me and her and how we get along. Actually, it has nothing to do with that.

The conflict really is (sniffs) how she treats our kid. And it’s really important that no one knows that. Because what she’s doing right now is that she’s kind of calling 50, 100 different people, mutual friends. And eventually she’ll message some family (sniffs). She pushes it as far as she can go so if you told her that you believed I was malicious or something, she would say ‘Yeah, he is.’ As much as you would believe is how much she’ll say I said or did. The story is for whoever she’s talking to (sniffs).

And then the narrative about it being me and her, that’s just to distract from the reality. The reality is that this person didn’t have any issues with me. I do whatever they said. I’m pretty much a doormat. I say ‘Yes honey’ and then do it (sniffs). I’m a pretty easygoing person. I’m not the kind of person where you would wake up one day and just be like “oh, I hate this person. I’m so unhappy. It’s all his fault.” That doesn’t even make sense (sniffs). Because I’m pretty easygoing and you know, if someone wants to do something, okay yeah let’s do that or I’ll support that, or whatever. Or, I’ll take the baby. You don’t need to take care of the kid. I love to take care of the kid because she’s my kid.

The thing with her narrative that’s going to come out eventually, and again, please don’t share this with anybody because it would really destroy my legal case, but it’s also hard for me if I can’t tell a single person (sniffs). So I’m not speaking to mostly anybody in our whole entire family. I just can’t. I can’t. I already got burned several times (sniffs). But yeah, the reality is that she doesn’t care about our kid. And so by her sort of running off, it’s not about her running from me. It’s her running– um (sniffs), basically, I wasn’t where the problem was…

It’s one thing if someone’s yelling and screaming, but it’s another thing if she’s ignoring our own kid. So she doesn’t smile at our baby. She just stares at our kid and whines about our kid. The problem with that is that Ellie’s only five months old, her brain is developing. So it’s important for her ability to formulate– hold on one second. I think I might be getting a call about a medicine or… 

Me: Oh, you want to call me back? Or should I wait on hold? It’s me, Zinnia. I’m still here.

Jared: Okay. Well yeah, that’s the reality. That basically neglecting a kid at that young an age 5 months can do a lot of– there’s a good chance it’ll do a lot of developmental damage to them. Ellie’s smiling, she wants to interact, and (sniffs) Chrystal has some really deep psychological (sniffs) issues (pauses). Can you still hear me?

And so um, you know, having a 5 month old around strangers. She wants to take the kid away from me and leave it with a full time nanny. She doesn’t like spending time with Ellie. That’s the dirty secret. That’s the reason I can’t say– I’m not saying anything (sniffs). Because it’s the best thing I need to do. And again, don’t talk to anyone, please for the love of God, if you care about my daughter don’t do that (sniffs), umm… the best thing I can let her do is let her keep trying to— she must have called 50 different friends or something.

Telling them about how I mistreated her and it’s all just lies. She retells stories where she was actually the aggressor and it’s really sad and it’s almost like with her mental illness she really needs the story partially which is really sad but it is convincing (sniffs). But she’ll describe how I chased her around the house from room to room, which has never happened one time, but she’s done that to me countless times and I got to the point where I was like ‘Hey, this is really crazy’ (sniffs) but um, but yeah. It’s all an act. It’s all a charade.

The smiling person in public, totally different in private. Once the guest leaves, her face goes blank. She shows no emotions. And when you meet her for those two hours, she’s smiling and she mirrors emotions back. But she doesn’t feel emotions for anybody. So if you tell her ‘Oh my God, hey it’s me Zinnia, I’m working on an art project,” she’ll smile at you. She practices how to do this. She’ll mirror whatever you say back to you and she’ll make you feel special. ‘Oh, art is so awesome! It’s amazing that you’re trying to do this artwork, wow Zinnia.’ Whatever you’re sharing, she’ll affirm that in a way that will make you feel like you’re so special. And the moment you leave the room, she is emotionless, expressionless for hours (sniff). And it’s scary. And I’ve seen it in movies and I’ve never thought I’d see it in real life.

And so the problem is her treating our child like that can do a lot of different damage to Ellie’s development, to her brain development, because when Ellie is learning how to do facial expressions. Ellie’s doing (sniffs) umm she’s reaching out, she needs someone to reach back. She needs someone to smile at her because that eye contact is how she learns about the idea of like herself and who she is. And also who other people are. I am here, Daddy’s there. This is my arm, this is Mommy’s arm. And that’s a process that’s like really critical right now that she gets a chance to experience. And so a baby that’s just left in a cradle or whatever, a baby that’s held by their mom but the mom never says a single word to the baby or smiles, or never makes eye contact with the baby, but does hold the baby on their chest like a purse or like an accessory, it actually does do irreversible damage.

And that’s the scary reality about why, one of these I have to send this letter [to my professors] to say I’ve been dealing with some urgent family matters and so yeah, I’m going to ask them if they have an alternate date [for the final]. And we’ll see. Maybe one or two of them do. Maybe some don’t. But yeah, it’s really time consuming but yeah it’ll be fine. It’ll be fine. It’s slowly coming around the corner.

Even talking about it has me so emotional that the last three weeks I wasn’t even able to talk about it. I mean it’s just my kid. It’s a very sensitive– Ellie’s a very sensitive topic but I’m slowly coming to the point where even now I can feel the stress and emotions right. So

Me: Are you thinking about what the academic advisor said? Are you kind of considering taking a little break? I know you want this so bad with school. I’m not just saying you give it up, but is that something that you think might be helpful or you’re not really thinking about that?

Jared: So, can you just confirm what I asked earlier though? Is this a private conversation? Or is this like… I’m not judging you. For a lot of people they almost can’t resist the urge. Because you’re talking to your mom or some other… who knows. “[Redacted], [Redacted] whoever, it’s like Jared shared with me x, y, and z.” Most people can’t resist that to be honest with you. But I’m hoping you’re the exception to that.

Me: I… don’t… If you’re asking about it, I don’t really think that I’m as close to different family members as you might think. I mean, I don’t know the last time I talked to you know [Redacted]. Obviously I talk to my mom, or I see her at least when uh, I go visit the kids, but—

Jared: I’m going to take that as a yes. But yeah. I’m not talking to any cousin, brother, sister. Even my own mom. I can’t. I need a chance to kind of gather myself for a few weeks and talk to my lawyers and stuff. And it’s critical that I have that time because I didn’t know, I didn’t know that when we got to this new city (sniffs), that Chrystal would look at me and say all these nasty things and say, “Hey. Pack your stuff. Get out of here. I don’t want to see you finish your graduate program because I need you to understand that you’ll never be a doctor like me.” And I don’t care about that stuff. That was like really unexpected and really toxic and sort of malicious (sniffs). But yeah, the idea that, you know, when I smile at my kid, she finds it disturbing because she’s mentally ill, that’s something that is different.

So, like, if someone’s depressed, a depressed person might just say hey, that person’s depressed. That’s not something that’s like– that can be different reasons. That person is still um, uh, that person shouldn’t be like judged necessarily. Like they’re in the other room, they’re depressed. It goes on. You figure it out, no one’s perfect.

But um, when I’m at the heart of the issue, it’s like we have a new baby. We’re in a new city. Everything’s seeming to be just like we said. Just like she said she wanted for years. And then I’m holding the baby and she says “Hey, you’re not allowed to compliment the baby.” That’s something– I thought she was joking. I’m not allowed to compliment the baby?

Me: What??

Jared: Well. This is the mental illness part. This is the part where usually I have to calm down because I’m a parent and most people? It’s too much to believe it (sniffs). So, this is the part where I have to calm myself down.

Because it’s really sensitive to share this kind of thing. But when she’s telling me (sniffs)… This is not about me and her. This is not about our relationship. This is not about how she treats me. Really she’ll try to tell you that (sniffs), but really it’s about how she treats our kid. That’s the only thing it’s really about (sniffs), well yeah. She told me she doesn’t really like me complimenting Ellie. She goes into a rage when I step outside because I complimented our daughter. This person is really a really sick person and she’s really good at pretending not to be. So I just really need some time to gather myself and just keep what I’m sharing with you very private.

Me: Ok. I understand.

Jared: But yeah, it was scary. I thought she was kidding. I thought she was joking. Of course, right. It’s like if someone told me if I can’t smile when I’m seeing my niece Zinnia. Can you imagine? And you’re an adult. Imagine if– my actual daughter is only four months old. RIght?

This is my chance. I’m a dad, I waited all those years. Ellie’s a little kid. Now I’m just holding the baby (sniffs) and she says “No, you’re not allowed to compliment the baby. You need to be giving those compliments to me.”

Me: (quiet uncomfortable laughter)

Jared: So now, what I’m describing to you, most people would assume that’s just a one-time thing, maybe that person’s having a bad day. That’s not what I’m saying. This happened day after day after day (sniffs) and she proceeded to throw my things outside. She proceeded to tell me that because I’m giving this attention, any attention to the baby, “Hey Ellie, you’re a beautiful baby. Hey mom, I love you too. Chrystal you’re doing great sweetie. I love you too. But hey Ellie, how you doing sweetie? I love you. You’re gonna be good one day.”

She went into a rage every time. She started throwing my things out day after day. Throwing my things outside. She told me I’m not allowed to study in the house. It was very confusing. It took me a couple months online to figure out what the fuck’s going on with this person (sniffs) like what kind of person, what kind of a sane person would do that? And this is so different from the same person I thought I was married to. And so I’m smiling at the baby, that makes her go into a rage as well.

But she’s really— can you see why it’s very important that I‘m really kind of discreet about this and so that your mom doesn’t share? Because your mom already told her, or it was [Redacted] or somebody. [Redacted], [Redacted], your mom, I tried to tell them that she attacked me five different times. Physically, I was unconscious, and the baby was right there. and I said “Hey, I’m in a new city (sniffs) and I need you guys not to share this because I’m scared for my kid. I don’t care about her hitting me, I’m scared for what kind of person is that violent. How much danger is my kid in? I just need some basic help. She’s just tracking my phone calls, my credit cards, my texts. I’m on a different phone now so now I can be a little more open but I’m scared. I’m telling you this right now but I’m scared to tell you this right now and it may be a small mistake.” 

But yeah, then [Redacted], [Redacted] or whoever it was (sniffs) they hung up the phone with me, they called Chrystal and said “Hey, Jared said that you were violent. And he’s trying to get you on videotape the next time you do it because you assaulted him like four or five times and he’s scared for the kid.”

And that was a very big moment in my life where I realized that a lot of people in our family, they act like they’re your friend but they’re very malicious. Because by them telling my wife that I thought my kid was in danger, she told me. She named who it was. I’m not saying that your mom was necessarily her, but [Redacted] or [Redacted]. I’ll talk to them a year down the road. But I never ever want to talk to them– Please never share anything about me with anyone— any of these people. Even [Redacted], whoever, or [Redacted] Share nothing about me (sniffs).

You never talked to me. They ask how I’m doing? I’m begging you, for the sake of my kid. Just say, “Jared? I have not talked to him in months. If you want to talk to him, you should reach out to him.” Because what happened is I went in the house and Chrystal turned to me and said “[Redacted] and [Redacted] told me about that conversation you had with them  where you said that I hit you and you’re trying to get me on videotape. Look at the ceiling. Look around. Do you see that? (sniffs)” We were standing in the kitchen and she said, “I’ve installed four surveillance cameras. Large ones. Now that I know you’re recording, I’m recording too.” She told me, “I’m a doctor. You’re not. I’m letting you know. You’re a man. Who do you think is going to believe you? It’s my word against yours.”

So that’s the actual nature of what, who I’m dealing with. But she’s very charismatic if you meet her in person. She’ll buy you gifts. She’ll tell you, “Zinnia, you’re the best ever.” And because of that, people can’t imagine. What I’m saying is that people are laughing so that they can share with her, and my kid’s in danger. To me it’s like a really serious topic. I don’t care about what she did to me but um it happened multiple times. 

Does what I’m sharing maybe shine a little light on why maybe when we talked before I was really trying to—

Me: Definitely.

Jared: Oh, also too, she hacked my phone. The phone I was using, she was listening to calls.

Me: How could you tell? Because that’s something—-

Jared: (Keeps interrupting me, will not let me talk) Let me answer that later. Because once I go down this rabbit hole, I’ll sit for two hours, but–

Me: I was just going to say that I feel like that’s something I see in movies but haven’t personally thought could be done to me so that’s why I asked. But that’s not important.

Jared: Yeah, we’ll get into that. There’s a lot of other things. But um, yeah. So I’m sending these emails today to let the (sniffs) (deep breath) professors know. And there’s no guarantee. But if I just email them out, the therapist was like, “Hey, a lot of people experiencing what you are, they would have just dropped and taken a year off of the program.”

 And I think you mentioned that. Well why don’t you take some time off? But here’s the trick. One of the reasons that she’s sabotaging my schooling specifically, is that she told me. Whenever I had a job interview for grad school (sniffs), and even when I started my first day, she just threw my stuff out. I was so confused. What do you mean? She’s messaging me threateningly, like at my first day of Berkeley.

“When you come home, your stuff will be— Me and Ellie will have left the state. I’m taking her to Texas. I’m getting a divorce. I’ve decided I don’t like being around this. I don’t like being around you.”

Out of the blue. This is not like something she was talking about three months ago or something at all (sniffs) or six months ago, whatever. She waited until she had my first day of class and part of that is a control thing. And that’s when you get into the controlling, abusive relationship, where the person wants to control what you wear, what you do. They isolate you from your family. And you are scared, for good reason. And you can’t share what you’re going through. And so if I take a time off from the program, one of the reasons she’s attacking my schooling and also my ability to um— like when I had my interviews she woke me up at two in the morning, three in the morning, yelling at me.

“Why are you yelling at me? I’m laying in the bed. I have an interview, at 7am I have an interview for a job that pays $130,000. For the past two years, you kept telling me I’m not doing enough and I felt guilty. But I told you yeah, I do want to do more. I do want to do grad school one day.”

She told me, “You gotta get a Master’s degree.” Kinda that kinda thing. But under the guise of kind of pushing me. “I’m just pushing you to do better.” And I thought well, you’re over the top a little bit. If you’re saying well, you need to have a Master’s degree. You don’t have a job. That kind of stuff again and again is a little bit much. But I’m not like a sensitive person in terms of that stuff. I’m a people pleaser. So I’m like well, yeah, I do want to get a Master’s degree one day. You know, it’s fine, whatever. 

And then when I was showing up to the interview, when I was showing to get my Master’s degree, I had an interview for a $130,000 job. On that day, two or three different interviews, every day I had an interview, she’d wake me up the night before at two or three in the morning. She’d just be yelling, standing over me until I woke up. Basically starting my day by throwing my stuff outside. My first day, one of my first days at Berkeley she actually grabbed my car keys and hid them.

She said ‘I’m going to make you two hours late.’ I was so confused. But one of the reasons why me stepping away for a year isn’t the best solution is that all of these things like me doing well on my finals (sniffs), me getting these interviews and jobs, they actually make me able to do better to protect Ellie and it’s one of the things I can do to ensure that Ellie isn’t basically a victim of abuse.

Because from their perspective, Ellie is like a house servant. Ellie is something that sits around like (sniffs) their whole thing is that she has no individuality. So they kind of want to break her— she’s five months old. They kind of want to break down her independence. Normally for kids it’s like hey look, my kid’s a little different. They smile, they’re maybe kind of more of a funny baby or sometimes there are babies who like to read books. Their personality starts to come out.

But her mental illness is about her stripping Ellie of any individuality because Ellie’s main purpose is to serve as a sort of a, uh— her job is to give mom attention. That’s the main focus of the kid. Her whole existence is based on her sort of, even as a baby, Ellie’s supposed to— it’s all really scary stuff. Another day we’ll go more in depth. It’s almost unbelievable. It’s almost like it’s better if I don’t even share more. I could go on and on about this. But yeah, basically it’ll be irreversible damage to Ellie. Like for example, Ellie’s crying, she’ll be like “Let her cry.” Ellie’s tired? “Well, Ellie’s tired but it makes me feel good after work so I’m going to hold her anyways.” Ellie’s smiling? “Well, I don’t like when smiles because I don’t feel those emotions. So Ellie, don’t smile. No one’s smiling today.”

These are subtle things but if you kind of have seen Ellie or if you’ve recently held a baby in your arms, you see how responsive they are. Every day, they’re learning something. Everyday they’re learning about something. Like how to like grab something, how to interact with their environment. They’re learning how to make different sounds. They might learn a vowel. They can’t talk but they’re learning maybe how to laugh.

So if you actually purposefully are blocking the child from having that experience, it’s much closer to what you expect from a child that was maybe abandoned or in an abandoned building, or the parent is a drug addict. Because even if people have a drug problem, they still might not, might at least do the drugs in the other room. They might go check on the kid and spend time with the kid. But I’d say those first couple years— I need to go and do some more research about it. The first like three years… at least the first six months to a year, having that kid kind of not in fear. So Ellie’s in fear because mom’s yelling all the time and she’s only five months, that’s actually going to do more damage than if she’s five years old. If your parents argued in the other room and you’re five, that’s different than someone yelling at you and you’re five months old. 

Me: That’s true. I learned about that in– I don’t know if I ever told you how I did domestic violence advocate training last year. But yeah, that was something they did discuss with us.

Jared: Oh really? What did they share about that?

Me: Just that babies are a little bit more of a sponge than we might think. Because a lot of times people think that babies aren’t going to remember early stuff, but that when it comes to child development, babies are more aware than we might automatically assume.

Jared: Yeah. That’s partially why Chrystal’s family— you know, mental illness where the person has depression or anxiety, part of that’s just genetic. Part of that’s by chance, you know what I mean? I don’t judge people. The issue with Chrystal’s brand of mental illness and her family members’ its based in this sort of infant age neglect of children and the problem is the issues it causes are beyond therapy.

So one thing that her, her mother, and her brother all have in common, is that they all sort of in public (sniffs)— I don’t want to get into the whole long version of it but basically, you know, there’s a lot of um like personality instability from dealing with this sort of early, newborn abuse. So that person, in public, can kind of smile, they can be really charismatic for two hours, three hours. Then each night, with someone very unusual let’s say Chrystal or her mom, who is very similar in that way even though it’s a little different, is they’ll sit there on the couch by themself and just be crying.

Like their actual– there’s something about the root, the core of their person like who they are and like their identity and how they see themselves, they’re very broken. That even like I’m thinking from my perspective, I have this PTSD, this upbringing that I had (sniffs) well at least I have memories of experiencing certain things and I can try to talk to a therapist and there’s treatments and things like that.

But this is a little different. This is sort of like sort of more close to someone who has like two different personalities. And so the Cobi persona is the one that I met and I thought was real, and I found out later that Cobi is not a real person. Chrystal is a real person and Chrystal is very different than anybody realized. So when she’s alone, she like (unintelligible), she’s someone who jumps back and forth. It’s scary. It’s almost like a person who, I don’t want to label her bipolar, but imagine a person who you can leave her alone in a room and they’ll start crying and shaking uncontrollably for no reason. Maybe saying things out loud that are very negative, very toxic about themself or whatever’s around them.

And it’s a person who you would think wow, this person is uh— you know, it’s  like– really strange. I think I’m going a little bit too off topic for this conversation. But um. Yeah. So the problem is that those people are very abusive to small children. So that’s basically the heart of the issue. Because um, they lack empathy. They lack empathy. And the problem with people whose quote, unquote ‘condition’ involves them having no empathy, is they enjoy– they get satisfaction and a  sense of purpose like on a deep level from seeing people around them in pain.

That’s what makes them so, that’s what makes it so don’t share anything I’m telling you. That’s what makes it so– it’s hard. I shouldn’t be sharing too much. I shouldn’t talk about this too much because like the lawyer has to figure this out down the road (sniffs). But even if like, God forbid, imagine if you were babysitting [Redacted] or something like that. Imagine you were sort of in a deep state of you know what they call it, like a fugue state or whatever. When people have a detachment from reality.

Imagine if you were detached from reality and the only thing that made you feel like you were in this dimension, on planet Earth, was hurting [Redacted]. Hurting him. That’s the danger. Maybe that will give you like the actual danger level and why we need to be discreet and a hush hush thing. I’m just tired of saying that because it’s not really (sniffs)--- but yeah I don’t mind you knowing but you’re the only person I trust. Maybe [Redacted]. But aside from the two of you, a lot of people in our family are numb. And they would actually maybe tell my wife and the only thing I have– didn’t know she had all this issue– the only thing I have in my favor is that she doesn’t totally know the full extent of what I know. That’s the only thing that might buy me an extra few weeks, and extra month, until I meet with the lawyers. Um, (sniffs) is she doesn’t totally know. Which is my only advantage, one of the only things that I can use.

But yeah. Imagine now, [Redacted], imagine [Redacted] is under your care. And you know, maybe you guys are kids or whatever. And you know, you’re just constantly harassing him around the clock and you’re getting joy out of that. So you’re smiling. [Redacted] is crying and saying “Why are you doing this to me?” And you’re saying, “I’m doing this to you because I like to see you suffer.” (sniffs). You’re pushing him around, you’re screaming at him. Maybe you find something he’s insecure about because he’s five years old, whatever. Maybe he’s fifteen like he is now. You just keep saying that again and again. “Yeah [Redacted], you are right. You are ugly. Your nose is ugly. Your face is ugly.”

And that is part of not just like a choice once in a while (sniffs), but imagine if that was something that was so fundamental to who you are. That’s like getting into the broken ego thing and the broken sense of self, it’s very different from other mental illnesses. Because other mental illness is like, yeah I had this brother, he abused me, or whatever. And it’s like well once a week, he said this bad thing to me.

That’s different from a person whose identity is tied to this sadistic piece. So now, everyday, ten times a day, you’re harassing this person [Redacted] to the point that he loses his sense of self. And ends up with permanent damage versus saying hey, I had a really shitty childhood.

Is anything I’m saying make any sense? And just in a– just so— in a logical (sniffs). Assuming what I‘m saying has some truth to it. Assuming I’m not just lying, making up all these things. Assuming there’s some truth to it, is some of the things I’ve shared or sharing make some sense? Assuming that I’m— assuming that it’s truthful. Does it fit together in a way? Does it paint a picture in a way? Is it something that your mind can relate on more of an intellectual level? Like I kind of understand that. I understand what that means.

Me: I think on an intellectual level I’m thinking things you know on a more, “Oh imagine if you felt this or that.” That’s so far from how I ever have felt that that was difficult to put myself in shoes like that. But, um. I’m listening. I’m listening intently. I’m on pins and needles.

Jared: Well I’ll, I’ll just say this and then I’ll go. Can you promi– I hate to do this for the fifth time. Can you just promise me that what I’m sharing to you, you’re not going to tell your mom or anyone in our family? Because– can you do that? Or you’re  not going to– at least for now. Give me time to get the lawyer a few more times.

Me: Yes.

Jared: Okay. Okay. I’ll trust you with that. But, um. There’s some people in our family– I used to think… I don’t really want to get all off topic here because again, I have finals tomorrow, I’m trying to do these emails and all this stuff. But it is important to do a check in. These things I’m sharing with you, are on like a really deep level, and for me to hold this inside for like the last eight weeks, it’s been really painful for me. And it’s not my goal here to share what I’m feeling to make you feel bad. It’s a lot for me to just carry by myself. In terms of, it’s really sad.

I tried to share a certain piece of this with family members and uh (sniffs), you know basically what I’m getting at is that basically [Redacted], or certain people, I had thought it was apathy. When I talk to [Redacted]. I’m not saying [Redacted] is the same as my wife. I’m not saying [Redacted] is the same as [Redacted]. Everyone is different in their own way. But I used to think that it was kind of like an apathy, right? Like hey, my family doesn’t really celebrate each other that much. They don’t care that much (sniffs). But what I realized, is that uh, it’s actually called Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

And there’s a reason why when I met my wife, there was a familiarity there. So, in other words, I used to think that [Redacted] was this sort of really cruel person because, you know, the drugs made him like that or something. What I learned just in the last two years from my marriage is, there’s a really good chance that actually whatever drugs [Redacted] was using, actually was’t what made him cruel. And there was an apathy. Like people in our family who are like kind of apathetic. LIke it’s your birthday and nobody messages you, (sniffs) that’s not apathy. I know. It’s actually like a–basically, it’s sadistic. It’s that me– it’s like not even uh. That’s why you don’t know this too. You might graduate college and a lot of people in our family, you don’t talk to them. It’s not like they’ll tell you, “Oh I hate your guts” or “I’m jealous.” It’s that they’ll say, “Oh, well that’s kinda cool. I don’t know. I mean, have you decided what you’re going to do next? Or do you still not really know? Are you still undecided? I mean, I guess the school you went to is okay but it’s not that great.” Or, “You still don’t have any money though, huh?”

These little negative comments, it’s really harding a much darker, deeper aspect, in my view, of our family which is that (sniffs) the narcissistic personality disorder is something that has a sadistic element. So the comments, the negativity, it actually makes the other person happy. But the person will never tell you that. And years and years will go by and you’ll always wonder (sniffs), why does this family member, I don’t want to bring [Redacted] into the conversation, but the [Redacted]s of the world and all these different people, they’ll call you and then only talk about themselves. And if you share something and you’re a little bit vulnerable, they’ll also ask you questions about it.

Tell me a little bit more about that time you were depressed. Tell me more.

Like they’ll pretend that they’re an advocate for you and they care, but the reality is that the narcissistic people, they actually don’t feel empathy. They’re pretending. So… they’re actually enjoying the um– you’re sharing with you and you think they have your back and are supporting but they’re actually enjoying hearing about the more deeper, darker you go about what didn’t work out or what you’re stressed out about or why you have anxiety. And that same reason is why certain people in our family, specific people in our family have this really high anxiety level where they feel like when they talk to other people in our family, they feel drained of their energy. So, um (sniffs), anyways. I’m kinda getting off topic here.

So I have the letter [asking my teacher for an extension] typed out here. I guess I should keep it short, right?

So I say, ‘Dear Professor Whatever. Is there an alternate test date I can take the final exam? I was a victim of this whole situation.’ Sigh. (typing noises) (sniffs)

And what else? Uhhh. I think I should keep it shorter, the better, right? So basically just say "Dear Professor Whatever, is there an alternate test date which I can take the final exam? And then I could say, “I've been dealing with family issues concerning abuse.” Not highlighting more specifics. And just leave it at that right? Send it out, right? And then, I’ll let you hop off in a second. Send out three of these emails (sniffs), actually at least two. For sure two of them. Send out two emails, then spend the rest of the day studying for the one tomorrow, assuming I might not hear back. And then that’s it. And then just plan to take it tomorrow, if I hear back that there’s an alternate date, that would be great.

What do you think? Sound like a good plan? I’m trying not to blow this. Because um, if I sort of fail the test or fail out of the program, or if I kinda step away, it would just make my life more miserable. Because Chrystal says she wants to put me back in the gutter where I was before I met her and all this crazy stuff that makes no sense. It’s sick. I’m telling you, she’s sick. But uh, you know, this is my way to help Ellie. Doing good on these tests. Then next week I can talk to some companies again and try to get the job search going (sniffs). And if I can do all that, I should be able to help Ellie. I have to get through like basically like three days.

But what do you think about that? That email? Short and simple. 

Dear Professor Whatever. Is there an alternate test date which I could take the final exam? Scheduled for blah blah blah? Recently, I have experienced blah blah blah, which has been interruptive to my studies.

Me: I mean, I think it depends on what is the ‘blah blah blah’ that you type.

Jared: Yeah. The therapist told me what to write. He gave me a letter. Basically it will say you know, “Recently, I’ve been a victim of domestic abuse.” I mean, there’s no way I’d tolerate this if I didn’t have a kid with this person, but whatever. 

“Recently, I’ve been a victim of domestic abuse which has had the following negative effect…”

I see what you mean. This is a lot to do by myself. So if you can just take some time and stay on the line with me, it really is a lot to deal with at one time. Like for one person. It’s a lot. It’s really a lot.

“Recently, I’ve been a victim of domestic abuse which has had the following negative effects: unstable housing? Not having a place to live has forced me to study out of coffee shops.”

I don’t know how much I have to share… it’s kind of embarrassing. But the guy told me I just have to tell the truth and see what he [the professor] says.

“Had to study out of coffee shops.”

Uh…. Then I could say I have ADHD, untreated. Sigh. ADHD untreated.

Me: You said UNtreated? Or that you have treated?

Jared: Well, in terms of the school, they were supposed to give me accommodations. I contacted them I’d say in early September, and so they were like– they have a six or seven week backlog.

Me: Oh wow.

Jared: Yeah.

Hello?

Me: I’m here.

Jared: Ok. I’m trying to see… how do I word this? I feel bad taking up your time but honestly this is like a really important day for me because if I blow this, I could lose my entire scholarship. I could lose access to my kid. I don’t really have anyone else to talk to, so I really appreciate that.

Me: Is your scholarship like you have to maintain a certain grade point?

Jared: (not answering the question) If I took it right now, I’d get an F on the final. I’d get an F. I have three final exams. There’s one Monday, Thursday, Friday. Tomorrow, Thursday Friday. If I had to take the test now, I fail both the Wednesday and the Friday exam with a grade of an F. Guaranteed, 100% And I could tell you more at a later time to really explain like what my life has been like the last six weeks since she told me– but that would be a lot. I have to focus on getting this letter written.

But yeah, um. Just Chrystal is a compulsive liar. So that is the reason I ask you to be discreet. Because if you called her right now and even shared what I’m saying, she not only would deny a lot of the things I’m saying even though I have proof, evidence. Like I can show you actual video evidence of it or whatever. She actually would use that and she would actually create more lies, more (sniffs)-- it’s really sick to do that to somebody. But my wife’s not a normal person. She would make up even more extreme lies about me than she already has. Which is– that’s why I’m like oh my God. She’s crazy. But yeah. She told me, “No one would believe you. I’m a female doctor. No one would believe you. I know how to handle, I know how to keep my mask on.” So yeah. Pretty stressful stuff when I have a child.

If I didn’t have a kid, I’d just walk away and it would have been a funny story or whatever. But Ellie’s in that house. She told me I’m a good dad. She really did. I’ve got her on– she told me multiple times. I told her, “I’m a good dad. I’m here.” She told me, “You are a good dad. I don’t care. I do not care. You’re a good dad. You’re very attentive. I do not care at all if Ellie has a good time with you. I’m going to purposefully try to alienate you from your own child. Because that’s just the kind of person I am.” And it’s really sad for my daughter.

It’s one thing if she was a good mom and then took the kid. Like oh man, she broke my heart. This isn’t about me. This is strictly about her mistreating my daughter and she wants to leave my baby with the nanny (sniffs). She doesn’t like spending time with Ellie. She hates that Ellie gets attention. That’s her mental illness. But Ellie gets too much attention. She’s a newborn baby. She needs attention to make sure she’s okay. She can’t talk yet. She can’t even crawl yet (sniffs). But Chrystal is a sick person and she’s actually angry that Ellie is getting so much attention. When I share photos, “Here’s Ellie! Look at the photo!” It drives her nuts. Like actually angry. She’s mentally retrograde or whatever like in a really sick way. So, by taking the kid from me, well now you guys don’t get to see– you know, Ellie doesn’t get that attention. And it’s to hurt me. She’ll do that to hurt me. And to hurt Ellie. And she can now have a narrative based on her.

‘No, no, no guys. Put the attention back on me. I’m a wronged woman. Jared has mistreated me.’

So for her, getting that attention, that’s what makes her day everyday and it’s really disgusting. I don’t know (unintelligible). She’s willing to actually ruin Ellie’s chance to even spend a single minute with her dad and my time with her. Total psychopath. Not a care. I never met one in my real life. I had never really had close interactions. I’d seen them in movies.

Do you know any psychopaths?

Me: No. I mean– I don’t think I’ve met one.

Jared: I’ve seen them in movies. And I always thought it was unbelievable.

Me: Me too. Seen them in movies.

Jared: Where it’s like, ‘It was me all along! I really did the crime. The cheerleader was…’ And I always thought that was so corny, so unrealistic. There’s no way someone could really be like that. It would be so easy to spot that person. And also too, why would somebody go through all that effort just to have this whole life be a lie? LIke it doesn’t make sense. I thought it was too unrealistic.

But then you know, even when you come to visit– you come to visit. And let’s say you came to visit. Chrystal is so charismatic and the whole two hours you’re visiting, “Yeah you guys, Girl let me tell you. Being a doctor, oh my god.” If you tell Chrystal your grandma is sick, she’ll probably tell you (unintelligible), “Let me make a phone call.”

She’ll go out of her way to make you feel like you’re the most special person in the world. But then, anytime a guest would leave her house, she would go from being a smiling, charismatic person to having no emotions on her face for a few hours. Like a blank face. Like, I’d say, “Hey, are you okay? You changed drastically once the family members left.” And she says, “Well, I’m a doctor. Doctors work hard and get really tired.” So she has these excuses that she works a lot and is a doctor and is just tired. “That’s why I’m not going to show this emotion like this.” (sniffs)

She doesn’t feel anything. The smiling is fake. All the times she told you how awesome you are, she doesn’t care. She doesn’t care at all. She doesn’t have any happiness or longing to spend time with family members or whatever. It bothers her to have that. But the narrative being back off her is what gives her the fuel. They call it narcissistic fuel. That’s what gives her fuel. So you call her talking about Ellie, “Well hold on, let me talk to you about how hard it is to be a mom. Let me talk to you about how Jared is a bad person.”

It doesn’t matter if it destroys– she destroyed my life and she said that wherever Ellie is doesn’t mater. But as long as you call her, every conversation will end up being a victim narrative. And that’s what got me scary. I’m like “Hey, let’s talk about Ellie’s development. Ellie’s gotten bigger. She’s put on some weight. Let’s talk about what books we should read her.” Because she used talk about that. When you have a kid, let’s talk about what kind of college (?) because that’s what parents usually do. You kind of paint this picture in your head. You get this idea (sniffs) even if doesn’t all come true, right? You should have a vision for your kid. She’ll say, “Let’s talk about Ellie next month.” Chrystal does not do that. That’s offensive to her. Ellie does not have individuality. 

Ellie doesn’t have– she doesn’t feel love towards her own child. Ellie, for her, is just something that is used like an inanimate object that’s part of a narrative. But she has lied for years. She told me, “No, we’re going to have our baby soon. This should give you a chance to have the experience you never had growing up because your dad passed away. You’re going to be a dad in the house, while I’m working, laughing with our kid all day. Thank God I’m pregnant.”

Up until two, three months ago, she was saying that everyday. She was acting. Which is scary. And she’s very convincing at that (sniffs). And then the baby came and for her, Ellie is just part of a narrative. So she can have Ellie and leave her with a stranger, leave her with the nanny. And then she can tell people all the time everyday how hard it is being a mom. And talk about how (sniffs) Jared left me or, I’ve heard her tell a lot of different lies. And when I talk about them, it just gives her more power. Her lies are like so opposite of the reality, just change it to be the opposite. Whatever she says, usually whatever she says other people do, to her, is typically what she is doing or has done. That’s the typical rule. And that’s you know (snifs)

And then, um, okay. I think I should hop off in a second. But that letter sounds pretty good, right?

“Dear Professor, is there an alternate test date which I could take the final? It’s currently scheduled for Thursday, whatever, is currently scheduled— ” Thank you for being on the phone. This is really stressful and emotional. It’s a lot to be just doing it on my own (sniffs)

“Recently I’ve been a victim of domestic abuse and had the following effects. Not having a place to live, forcing me to study in coffee shops and the car. Uh– late at night or whatever (sniffs). Um. It’s been a significant investment of daily research figuring out my rights in order to see my daughter. ADHD Treatment.”

That should be it, right? I’m planning to show up tomorrow— what should I say after that? I’ll say “Please let me know—” Hello?

Me: I’m laying down next to the phone because honestly I’ve been given so much information. I’m listening but I’m laying down here and I don’t even know what to say next about the letter.

Jared: It’s emotional. It’s so emotionally draining it cripple– You know, Chrystal told me I decided— after the second time she sabotaged my job interview. I was like “This is it! This job pays $130,000 and it took me a year to even get in front of this company.” And that was one of the first times she threw my stuff out of the house. The day I got the interview. And when I came back in from the interview, she started screaming at me. And I was so confused. You know, the narrative she’ll tell you? That’s the mental illness right there. The narrative is, this guy Jared doesn’t do enough. Whatever you believe, she’ll tell you. She’ll tell you that I’m lazy, she’ll tell you that I don’t have any money. She’ll tell you that I don’t help her around the house, which is a lie. I cleaned for the past 90 days straight. I cooked. I cleaned. I swept. I took out the trash everyday. I even took (?) But, um, after the third–first two jobs, I was so confused because I noticed that pattern (sniffs). Every time I had interviews, sabotaging. Waking me up at three in the morning, four in the morning, yelling at me the night before. Eventually she admitted it to me. She said, “You know (sniffs), I never thought the sch— I used to always tell you I would give you the time to have a grad school degree. And I told you that you should get a grad degree or you should go to a top program. I never thought that you would actually– I never thought they would actually let you in. And, um.” She says, “I decided–” It was kind of a vindictive move. She says, “I decided that I don’t want you to get a job. To work, to support Ellie. Even a family friendly job, whatever the hours. You are not allowed to accept any job. Go there, get your degree for two years and then you work for me. You are my employee.”

The narci— you hear what I’m saying to you?

Me: I’m hearing it. I’m just also like… getting overwhelmed a little bit honestly. A lot of bit honestly.

Jared: Well we’ll cut the conversation in a second. But narcissistic personality disorder, basically, to say this last thing. At some point maybe I’ll send you a video to watch. It’s almost better if you hear this from someone else. But basically the person experiences horrific child abuse. Usually like a relaly (sniffs) and it actually prevents them from developing a normal sense of themself. So they have a split personality. They have two personalities. And that’s where the Cobi personality comes in. Such a strange mental health– strange mental health stuff. Because usually something about a person, you can kinda tell offright. This one is very unusual because a person– the new person– ego, the new identity that they take on, lacks the ability to feel.

The person never experiences like joy, happiness, things like that. Or they see someone suffering, they don’t feel anything. And so, they take on a persona and the persona they take on it takes a lot of work for them to mentally– like the Cobi persona, right? I’m this super confident person. I’m a person doing a lot, a doctor, whatever.

They take on this persona but it’s very mentally draining for them to take on this persona all day. Imagine if you had to pretend to be somebody who was a famous actor or a host of a tv show. And for everyday, to go so far outside of your actual truth. And so the way they offset this, they have to find either a child or a spouse or someone near them. It could even be a sibling or something. ANd what they do is during the day, they go out and act. They call it masking. They act out as this sort of personality and kind of hold it together. And at night, they offload all their negative emotions into a vessel, which can be actually a human being. But in their mind, every person is just an extension of themself.

So that’s why for Chrystal, she looks at Ellie saying, ‘I don’t know why you’re such a headache. I don’t know why you’re such a problem.’ She may try to tell you it’s cultural. ‘Oh yeah, that’s the Nigerian way.’ There are reasons why she is who she is.

So she’ll say, ‘Oh, in Nigeria we just are tough on our kids.’ But actually, that’s not true. But that, that’s not true. That type of abuse is not a cultural thing. So when she said, ‘Ellie’s such a headache. I can’t believe I had to carry you,’ you’re basically damaging that person. And every interaction with that person is a negative one where you share negative things. And uh, yeah.

Chrystal told me, “After your grad school, you’re not allowed to get a job. You’re going to work for me.” So she’s basically projecting all of her childhood abuse onto me. There’s no treatment. There’s no therapy that works. There’s no medication that works. It’s totally irreversible and it’s one of the hardest mental illnesses to find. LIke 1% of people maybe. But it can be different on a scale. A lot of people have narcissistic traits. A narcissistic trait, normally you think of it as that outgoing person. This is a covert—”

Me: Jared, I need to take a break from this call. I’m getting really anxious. I feel like I might have a panic attack, honestly. So I’m gonna go.”

Jared: Ok, thanks for your help—

Me: I heard everything you said but I have to go. I have to go. (I hung up on him). 

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